1. that's me

   McCain is a coward, hiding behind Mommy’s skirts. Knowing Biden’s reputation as a ferocious debater, he sent this defenseless little Miss Alaska runner=up out there thinking it will muzzle Biden and he’ll have to ‘play nice’ because she’s a woman. I say–if she wants to get up on the porch and play with the big dogs, she needs to be ready for what the big dogs can dish out. Bring it on, Joe.

   Aug 30th, 2008

2. James

   All Biden needs to worry about, not being too aggressive towards Palin. if he can do that, he’ll destroy her.

   But Palin will be the beneficiary of low expectations.

   Aug 30th, 2008

3. John Layfield

   Seeing as there’s a higher-than-usual chance John McCain could croak sometime during a potential Presidency, surely he could have done better than trying to out-inexperience Barack Obama by finding the most out of the way irrelevant inexperienced politician possible to be his potential successor.

   Aug 31st, 2008

4. Mark Kretzschmar

   I’ve been thinking about it and the coolest tactic that Biden could employ (he has been in the Senate for more than three decades, so he must have some tricks up his sleeves) would be to force Palin to make statements similar to “I don’t know, but I can learn.” If that happens (judging by Biden’s foreign policy experience among other things), she will come off as a very weak, inexperienced (duh), and perhaps even scared candidate.

   Overall, Biden is the best bet in this situation. Even if she talks about her “experience” as governor, Biden can then lampoon her for actually supporting funds given to the “Bridge to Nowhere” project (even though she said she opposed such cash), and her willingness to remove perhaps our most precious and violated species from the endangered species list, the polar bear. You’d be surprised how upsetting that is to most people. Even my conservative friends have said, “Fuck that lady,” after hearing about her plans for the polar bear. Hell, she even threatened to sue!

   Furthermore, even though her brother-in-law was in fact a piece of shit individual based on the things that he did, she fired the guy who wouldn’t hire him. If he wanted to, Biden could then argue that Palin would use her influence for personal reasons, including grudges. Seems Cheney-esque, if you ask me.

   Aug 31st, 2008

5. A.W. Ross

   “But Palin will be the beneficiary of low expectations.”

   Agreed. I guess we forget pretty quickly that George H.W. got himself elected despite the albatross that was Dan Quayle. So maybe there’s hope for Palin, or maybe she simply neither hurts nor harms McCain’s campaign.

   I’ll be interested to see if Biden brings up the polar bear issue… it would be nice to see that aspect of environmentalism actually become a factor in the debates for once.

   Aug 31st, 2008

6. Tarin

   Actually Mark, I do believe you misread the controversy concerning her brother-in-law. She didn’t fire the guy for not hiring her POS brother-in-law. She fired him for not /firing/ the bastard. And I find myself actually considering this one of her better sides. I wouldn’t want a guy like that on the police force in my area, and I wouldn’t want a guy who doesn’t care if a guy like that is on the force in charge of the police force in my area.

   Honestly, I looked over her political career and I can say that I have a lot of respect for what she seems to be trying to do, and wish her luck as the governor of Alaska. However, she seems woefully unprepared to be VP. It’s not just her inexperience, it’s that she obviously hasn’t given any thought at all to anything that doesn’t directly impact Alaska. I would like someone to learn that there are other states in the US and even (gasp!) other countries /before/ being sworn into office as VP, not on the job.

   Biden, however, I think is a pretty solid choice now that I’ve done more research on the guy. Not only does he have a lot of experience (Became senator at the youngest age legally possible, and has held his position ever since to become Delaware’s longest lasting senator), but he also fits in well with Obama’s campaign message of trying to make change. I find it very interesting that for the 2004 campaign he was pushing for a Kerry/McCain ticket to try and take steps to begin healing the ever-widening political rift that so damages the country. I also like the fact that he doesn’t seem to be afraid to say what he thinks on subjects. All told, I don’t agree with every decision he’s made, but in general I think he’s a very good compliment to Obama. People criticize Obama for being inexperienced, and more show than substance, so he picks a VP with experience and a reputation for speaking his mind.

   Of the two, Biden seems to have been picked because he’d do a good job and is strongest where Obama is weakest. Palin seems to have been picked purely because being a young charismatic woman will make it difficult for Obama to criticize her without opening himself up to attacks. He can’t hit her for being inexperienced without McCain responding “So you’re saying we don’t want inexperienced people in the White House?” and after the vicious democratic primary with Clinton he runs the risk of being labeled as being hostile to women in general if he goes after Palin too hard.

   I do have to give McCain grudging credit for being a skilled tactician. He knows damn well that an Obama/Biden ticket is a debate juggernaut, so instead of trying to face them head on, he’s throwing traps at them in hopes that it’ll slow them down too much to run him over. If the current Republican policies weren’t so deeply offensive to me, I’d say he personally would make a damn fine leader.

   Sep 2nd, 2008

7. Mark Kretzschmar

   Yes, Tarin. I knew about my mistake after I wrote it (hiring does in fact = firing). I still haven’t figured out how to edit posts on this site.

   Sep 2nd, 2008

8. A.W. Ross

   If you’re logged in, you should be seeing an Edit link next to your comment’s timestamp. If not, I’ll have to fiddle with the knobs and levers.

   I’d have an easier time recognizing McCain’s potential leadership if he were still the same man he was in 2000. The straight talkin’ renegade he styles himself as died years ago; he’s just another cog in the broken wheel now. The only real “mavericks” in American politics are either portrayed as fools (Paul, Gravel, Kucinich) or demonized as radicals (Nader, McKinney), or simply ignored entirely.

   Sep 2nd, 2008

9. Dave

   Comment from a Non-American…….
   Maybe the question is, if either Obama or McCain is elected and can’t fulfill the presidential office, which vice-presidential finger would you rather have on the button?
   Wait a minute, what am I talking about? You poor bastards have Bush/Cheney……..and you got them re-elected !!!

   Sep 3rd, 2008

10. Tarin

    That’s actually something that is big on my mind as well. Lets face it, if Obama is elected, he’s going to face a lot of assassination attempts. If McCain is, he’s old and may keel over. The US has had VPs take over before, but this is the first election where the ability of the VP to take charge has this level of importance before the election even starts.

    Sep 3rd, 2008

11. Travis

    I originally was all for biden just because of his hard hitting attitude he managed to upkeep through the years. I think he’s got loads more potential and punch than Palin which is something not common in the white house. With this being said I know for a fact, there’s too much large corporation control on who is elected presidency.

    No one would allow obama (inexperience and obsession with change) and Biden (obsessed with change and drama) to be president.

    Do you think they’d actually let the people have a say in who is president? You must be crazy.

    Whichever president brings our countries large corporations and government money is the president who will be elected. And I’ve come to accept this fact.

    Think of it as owning a business and giving your employee’s control. Not exactly a good business decision. And by the way if you didn’t know already, our government is a business in its purest form. As is 99.9% of governments.

    If we had control on who was to be president, I’d have to go with McCain and Palin. Resting on the sole fact of Obama’s iffy past and his obsession with change. Not to mention i dont think that a black represents the majority of this country. Until blacks are the majority, we need to have a white president. You can call it racism, i call it representation.

    It wouldnt matter either way, president’s and vice president’s are just figure heads acting as a punching bag. Taking responsibility for the inner workings of our government. Get over it. you have no control. Throw away your tv, go outside and enjoy the fresh air. Let them control what they have control of. And allow yourself to control what you have control of.

    Sep 3rd, 2008

12. Michele Ebert

    I think this is the most appropriate response to the above comment:

    http://www.feanor.net/z0r/shock/whiteblack.swf

    Sep 3rd, 2008

13. A.W. Ross

    @ Dave: I can’t say that I’m comfortable with any human finger on that particular button. I’d sooner trust a fluffy white rabbit to the nuclear arsenals on this planet. That said, considering how much McCain likes to joke about bombing Iran and how Palin would be obligated to abide by his wishes, I’d probably want them both as far away from the suitcase as possible.

    @ Tarin: Good point. It’s almost as if everyone is expecting bad things to happen to the next president. Which is understandable; all world leaders in general and American presidents in particular face this possibility, and McCain and Obama are probably at the highest risk in decades.

    @ Travis: I was with you until you played the race card. Corporate control, shadowplay, the facade of American democracy… I dig that, which is why if I were American I’d probably avoid the major parties entirely and back the Greens. That, and I’m a Green kind of guy in general. But man, the Presidency needs to go to whomever is most qualified, period. Race should have no place in the equation whatsoever.

    Sep 3rd, 2008

14. Tarin

    So basically what Travis is saying is that a black person is incapable of representing white people? I’m going to have to say that I do indeed call that racism. In fact, I’d call it one of the foulest forms of racism, since it’s the deeply ingrained type that people try and foist on others and that’s frankly disgusting.

    As far as the other points are concerned, I always get a chuckle out of conspiracy theories. Have any of you ever tried to maintain a secret conspiracy of any scale for any length of time? It’s damn near impossible to do, and only gets worse as the scale gets larger! Yes, the corporations /are/ trying to influence the elections. Practically everyone, including ourselves, would like to influence the elections in some way. But big corporations are not a uniform block, they don’t pull the same direction as each other, and even if they did there are other large powerful blocks (like the Church) that has other agendas. Can an argument be made that such groups have too /much/ pull at the moment? Most certainly. But to say that the whole thing is rigged is basically a self-defeating scheme where you voluntarily hand power to the people you claim are stealing it. And that’s when you’re /truly/ powerless.

    If anyone ‘knows for a fact’ that the government is a puppet to a specific group of people, I am perfectly willing to be shown conclusive and concrete proof. Which states are rigged, and how are the votes tampered with? And to what degree? How do they hide such illegal activities? What are the names of the people in charge? I’ve seen tons of conspiracy theories, and most of them are very long on speculation and short on hard evidence. If you can’t provide documentation proving the claims, then perhaps it’s best to hedge your bets and vote for the best candidate just in case the votes are fairly counted? It’s not like it’ll hurt you to do so.

    Sep 4th, 2008

15. Michele Ebert

    But really guys, lets not be so harsh on Travis. I wouldn’t trust Obama to solve the energy crisis; after all, black men can run 60mph, so they don’t drive cars. And how can he have an opinion on world food shortages when he gets his energy from photosynthesis rather than eating? We need an upper class white man to represent America, a country which has upper class white men as 90% of its population.

    Sep 4th, 2008

16. Travis

    Guys. I’m in no way racist, I’ve got black friends, some of which are very close to me. And putting race to the side, if you’re saying that it shouldn’t matter on race, it should matter on experience then you come to the same conclusion.

    Fact of the matter is, I know its not a conspiracy. I think it’s ridiculous how people just debunk anything but what they hear on the news. If the majority of the population doesn’t believe it, its a conspiracy theory. You’re a mere pawn in the grand scheme of things. Get over it. And as I said. Things will happen no matter who gets elected, they’re just a figurehead.

    I’d love to inform you but you don’t seem to hold the mental capacity for such proof and reality. I’ll let you be one of the millions that sit in front of your tv. watching debates. And talking about how you think a small group of people will change the country. This country has been going in the same direction since the beginning. They put Bush into the presidency so you can blame their actions on the middle east on his Texan attitude. Instead of turning to the mass groups of people who run things. You truly must be blind not to see what’s happening.

    Let me guess. That was a plane that hit the pentagon too? No pilot has the skill and no commercial passenger plane has the maneuverability to hit the building in such a way. Not to mention the COMPLETE lack of wing damage. Oh and those perfectly collapsing twin towers were from those planes am I right? Google plane accident with a building and do some comparison.

    There’s evidence everywhere. But there’s no point in discussing such things either because of people like you Tarin. You just blindly accept anything that big brother throws at you and have no care for anything besides that. As for everyone else with a mind of your own, throw away your tv, go outside, and enjoy the fresh air.

    Sep 4th, 2008

17. A.W. Ross

    …how did we manage to get from racism to 9/11 Truth conspiracy talk? I know this is an open thread, but man, my head is spinning from the whiplash.

    If I can just swing this back to the candidates for a moment: one thing which bothers me about Biden is that he was (still is?) one of the leading figures in the “War on Drugs”, putting laws like the bans on paraphernalia into effect. He’s even the guy who coined the term “Drug Czar”. Considering how costly and counter-productive this little crusade has been, I consider that a black mark.

    Sep 4th, 2008

18. Travis

    Why shouldn’t the government try to outlaw something they can’t tax. Its in their best interest to either produce it or outlaw it.

    Sep 4th, 2008

19. Tarin

    Umm, I currently live in Canada (US citizen though), don’t even own a TV hooked up to cable or an antenna of any sort, and generally believe that the US is badly in need of a revolution to reboot its system and get itself back on track. (Historically, most governments had a major revolution every 300 years, give or take, for a reason. Without changes, things stagnate, then fall into corruption.) “Big Brother” doesn’t exactly have a very strong line to my head, I do a little thing called independent research, and draw from a hell of a lot more sources than purely US ones. So lets go through your points one at a time shall we?

    1) Black friends doesn’t make you ‘not a racist’. Racism is, at it’s core, an belief in fundamental differences between races on a mental level. I care about my pets, I don’t see them as equals. If you believe that a black person cannot fairly represent white people, you are a racist, no matter who your friends are.

    2) I don’t believe that a small group of people will change the country. The country changes when a large group of people support an idea, we call this concept a ‘democracy’. Democracy, however, fails when the large group of people that share similar beliefs decide not to stand up for them because they think it won’t matter. That is why the US system is currently broken. Special interests have too much power because we keep on giving power to them by deciding not to act ourselves. No, one person isn’t going to make the difference. But a majority is made up of millions of ‘one person’s, and they have to start somewhere. It’s better to stand up for what you believe and be outvoted than to shrug the whole thing off as a lost cause.

    3) Well, your third point is mostly a bunch of attacks on me personally. Since I’ve already explained how utterly stupid and wrong your view of me is, I see no point in getting into this one except to say that no, I don’t believe conspiracy theories without proof. I also don’t believe what the government says without proof. I’m a scientist, I don’t believe my shoes are tied without proof, and I never bother to untie them in the first place. If you cannot show proof, and in my experience the only people who fall back on ‘I would love to show you but you wouldn’t understand’ are people who are trying to weasel out when they don’t actually have anything to show, then I think it’s fair of me to say that there is no reason why I /should/ believe you.

    4) I’m a physics major with a primary interest in aerospace and an unhealthy personal side-interest in things that explode. I have, personally, created structural material for airplanes down to sewing kevlar through an aluminum-filled carbon honeycomb. I have researched building demolitions and construction. I am perfectly capable and willing to explain all the reasons why ‘planes hit the pentagon and WTC’ is not only possible, but probable. I mean hell, it’s not like I have not done impact simulations on plane vs various as part of a NASA program in the past (though admittedly not on the WTC specifically. It was pre-9/11 that I did this work). Your qualifications are, my good sir? Oh? You’re an expert on Googling? Impressive!

    5) More ad hominum attacks.

    Anyhow, about the War on Drugs, I too consider that a black mark on Biden. I agree with the sentiment, that we don’t want harmful drugs floating around, but their methods for control have been sorely lacking at best, and counterproductive at worst. The ‘war on drugs’ was put into effect with the idea that it would be easily solvable just by throwing a bunch of officers at it and telling them to ‘arrest drug people’. It’s not, it never was, and they badly need to step back and start over with a plan that is far less stupid if they really want to control drug use. It’s fairly clear at this point that you have to hit the producers hard, but education, harm reduction, and rehabilitation are more fruitful options for the users.

    Sep 4th, 2008

20. Travis

    1) I never once said they were less capable mentally. I look at things from a business and global aspect. You don’t put a boat on the letterhead of an aircraft business do you?

    2) The only reason I’ve given up is because the general American population is too tame a docile to revolt, or have any type of uprising. Which is why the government gets away with things. Contact me when you’ve pulled something together that will make a difference, till then don’t waste your breath. Its going to take a horrible catastrophe or event to cause the American population to get out of their house and do something.

    3) The people with proof aren’t allowed to talk. One day you’ll understand why you cant find out what they don’t want you to.

    4) you’re a physics major are you? Any flying experience in those aircraft. I dont care what program you were a part of. I flew down to DC and studied it myself. I’ve been flying aircraft, working on them, buying them, selling them you name it i’ve done it as far as aircraft goes. Its impossible to maneuver a plane into the side of the pentagon without either leaving some damage to the ground before it or leaving some wing damage. The only reason I mentioned google is to show how easy it is to get proof of this.

    Sep 4th, 2008

21. Tarin

    1) Again you’re talking about there being fundamental differences between races, which is racism. A black person vs a white person is not exactly comparable to a plane vs a boat. It’s comparable to a plane vs a plane with a different paint job. Given that every plane I see is not painted the same, one can conclude that the paint job has nothing to do with the functionality of the plane. I would hope that if I took a plane and painted it with a nautical theme, you would not try and sail it on the ocean?

    2) I somewhat agree with your general point here. The general population is too comfortable with the way things are to have an uprising, and that /is/ why the government gets away with far more than it should. I simply believe that taking that and using it as a reason to give up makes you as tame, docile, and as much of a sheep as the people who you blame for it. I get so damn sick of everyone agreeing that something needs to be done, but whenever someone stands up and says “Lets do something then!” responding with “It’s too much trouble” or “It won’t really matter anyway.” No shit nothing happens! The US /deserved/ to have Bush for 8 years because they were too damn apathetic to get off their asses for even a single day. If you’re not willing to vote, then you have forfeitted your right to complain about who is elected.

    3) “The people with proof aren’t allowed to talk.” is a debate facepalm comment. I could say that the sky is really purple, and there’s proof that it only looks blue because nanomachines have been injected into your eyes at birth specifically to alter your perceptions of the sky. Only the people with proof aren’t allowed to talk. And you can’t prove me wrong, even though we all know I pulled it off the top of my head as I wrote it. All it tells me is that /you/ personally do not have the proof. You’re convinced it exists, but you’ve never actually seen it or touched it. If you drag out “Proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing” next, I’ll be forced to laugh (harder). Lets be blunt here. I am forced to grant that lack of proof is not proof of a lack, I can no more prove that there /isn’t/ a grand conspiracy than you can prove there is. I ask for proof because you are the one that injected the idea into the debate as a point. Since I think everyone realizes that the only possible resolution of a point of contention that has no possible strong proof either way is an agreement that everyone is going to believe that which they want to believe, the only true reason to even go on about it it is as a practice in debate, critical thinking, and because it’s an interesting thing to talk about. However, since this is supposed to be a Biden vs Palin thread, continuing this discussion would be better served by a dedicated thread to it as even if we could get an agreed resolution to it, it’d not really impact what we’re supposed to be talking about.

    4) Being not an expert on flying an aircraft, I can’t truly comment on the difficulties of the actual collision from a piloting standpoint. I have spent time on professional flight simulators (not just home games), but all those really taught me is that I personally can’t land a plane worth shit, though I’m amazingly good at crashing them into the ground. I can say from a physics standpoint that it’s perfectly possible, in fact it’s physically easier to do than some of the forced landings that pilots have pulled off, but physically possible doesn’t translate directly to ‘is what happened’. Unfortunately, I’m at a bit of a disadvantage when discussing the details of the Pentagon crash because I have done significantly less in-depth research into that crash compared to the WTC. I have seen well reasoned (and not well reasoned) arguements that it had to be a 757, or that it couldn’t. The issue is further confused by the fact that the government is tight-lipped (with good reason) whenever it comes to things dealing with the Pentagon. Things I can say for certain are that it is physically possible for it to have been a 757. I can say that there is NOT a normal rocket out there that could cause that type of damage, but it would be possible (albiet expensive and difficult) to custom design one that would. Again, as this doesn’t apply to either Biden or Palin, it would be better served on a topic of it’s own.

    Sep 4th, 2008

22. kate rocks

    my vote is going for girish.

    Oct 2nd, 2008

23. ProvocativeElement

    Hi! I’m new (obviously)

    I was on another message board that had a thread discussing 2nites debate when i read that the Media is saying Biden will look bad if he goes after Palin’s jugular. It’d be interpreted like he’s beating up on a woman.

    I was stunned! So I just googl’d Biden vs Palin to see if this was a thought that turned up elsewhere

    and I have to say - That really pisses me off!!!

    you cannot straddle the fence with this one. either you’re tough enough to do the job or you’re not. how you gon hide behind the precious, lily-like womanhood and still be looked at as capable of running the country!!!

    over a 150 years ago Sojourner Truth said

    That man over there say
    a woman needs to be helped into carriages
    and lifted over ditches
    and to have the best place everywhere.

    Nobody ever helped me into carriages
    or over mud puddles
    or gives me a best place. . .

    And ain’t I a woman?
    Look at me
    Look at my arm!
    I have plowed and planted
    and gathered into barns
    and no man could head me. . .
    And ain’t I a woman?

    I could work as much
    and eat as much as a man–
    when I could get to it–
    and bear the lash as well
    and ain’t I a woman?

    either she’s a world leader or not
    (btw, I vote not)

    Oct 2nd, 2008

24. A.W. Ross

    Unfortunately, I missed the VP debate. I was watching the Canadian PM candidates, well, go for each other’s jugulars, as you put it. Curious as I was about the Biden/Palin talk-off, I gotta put the matters of my own country first.

    I did catch highlights, though. Man. You guys could really use the kind of roundtable cage matches we get up here.

    Oct 2nd, 2008

25. Michele Ebert

    provocativeelement: I agree with you; that attitude is infuriating. But sadly, what the media is saying is probably somewhat true. Republicans I imagine wouldn’t hesitate to spin that kind of thing into woman-hating. Hell, a lot of women were angry at the Democrats for giving the nod to Obama rather than Clinton, accusing it of being sexist, et al.

    Up here in Canada we had a similar incident not very long ago. Leaders from two of our major parties were at first refusing to attend the national debates if Elizabeth May, leader of the Greens, was allowed to come. The reason was that she was being accused of making backroom deals and secretly endorsing a candidate from a rival party. Of course, this got spun into “sexist politicians want to keep the debates as an old boy’s club!” Eventually, she was allowed to participate (without anyone else boycotting), but I get the odd feeling if that she was a man, a lot less people would have cared.

    Of course, nobody attacked her at the debates because she and everyone else attacked our current leader instead. Which is fair, because our current leader is so arrogant that instead of releasing a political platform for the upcoming election, he’s taking pictures of himself with kittens. I wish I was joking.

    Anyway, in the end, she wound up being an excellent debater and a strong speaker. But yet the stereotype still persists that women are too weak to go into politics and need to be protected from the loud scary men.

    Oct 3rd, 2008

26. Darecornepe

    Hello. It is test.

    Nov 18th, 2008

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